read the following from Gemini. what China develops is over and above what P-3 Orion is capable of.
While a P-3 Orion's Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) is primarily designed to detect the magnetic disturbance caused by a submarine, it's not specifically designed or intended to detect the magnetic anomaly associated with a Kelvin wake. The MAD system is optimized for detecting the magnetic field disturbance caused by a large metallic object like a submarine, and it's most effective at close range and low altitude. While a Kelvin wake, which is a pattern of waves created by a moving submarine, can also generate a magnetic field, this field is significantly weaker and more diffuse than the magnetic field produced directly by the submarine's hull. The P-3's MAD is not sensitive enough to reliably detect these weaker, more spread-out magnetic disturbances
Realize US MAD has progressed since 1966. Understanding MAD was mandatory during my first year at the Naval Academy, it was part of the basic knowledge we must have to eat normal meals.
The Kelvin wake can be minimized by using thermoclines, with structural additions to the submarine, by slowing down (submerged subs are faster than you imagine) and other methods. The U.S. is also experienced in using satellite detection.
same as missile defense, no single system is impermiable. A multi-layer detection platform is much more robust. Always a game of spear and shield and who innovates faster wins.
One interesting development for U.S. submarines is they are losing their elite status. When I was at the Academy, Admiral Rickover had his pick. Rickover interrupted his interview with the number one guy in our class to put the Midshipman in a closet for hours to think about his answer to the question, “Why did you get that one “B”?
Today, nuclear submarines are forced to request non-volunteers be assigned. I don’t know why the service has fallen this way.
same problem with other branches of the US military. I think few new recruits are attracted as people get delusioned about the righteousness of what they are told to do. Most people go into military with a sense of honor and service, which seems to be completely lacking in the wars US fights today.
Put yourself in the shoes of the graduating Midshipmen. I chose to be a pilot. All surface assignments mean fresh air.
Submarines have two career paths, nuclear ballistic missiles stay hidden for six months and they don’t generate Kelvin wakes when on station. Attack submarines are totally different and they don’t need to avoid Kelvin wakes…they are the wolf not the hare
I've read that a large fraction of US military recruits entered through a special pre-bootcamp for candidates who failed the iq test or physical fitness test initially. I have to imagine that these people wouldn't want the hardest assignments.
That is a totally different group from any who might serve on nuclear submarines.
Admiral Rickover had his pick of any Naval Academy graduate.
I was told my class had 40,000 who started the process to apply. About 1/2 of them were considered for Congressional or Presidential appointments. All those in the last 20,000 applicants were in the top 5% of their class. Of these, 4000 are nominated. Then the physical exams reject many.
My class of 1350 had higher SAT scores than any freshman class in the nation except for Harvard. We added to the Harvard requirements by demanding top physical conditioning.
Of these 1350, 850 graduated. They were good, but maybe we lost a few who were better. No society can successfully choose the elite. They all must settle for good.
From this group, only the top few qualified for submarines. Me? Mild Claustrophobia…I would have been miserable underwater for six months.
"About 1/2 of them were considered for Congressional or Presidential appointments. " Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the terms. Would you elaborate, please? Just curious.
Each U.S. Senator and Congressman and the Vice President can have five attending the Naval Academy at any time. Almost all Midshipmen get into the Naval Academy by being nominated by a Congressman or Senator.
I'm sorry, but MAD detectors are as old as squatting to shit. I don't deny China's advances at all—in fact, I'm a fervent admirer of Chinese technology. But we shouldn't try to sell something that even my aunt and the neighbors know as something new. More impressive is the new technology to detect submarines from space.
"This wake, previously studied for radar-based imagery detection, generates a faint but detectable magnetic field when seawater ions, disturbed by motion, interact with the Earth’s geomagnetic field."
So the material that makes up the submarine (e.g. steel) has no bearing on the Kelvin Wake. Brilliant.
Technology is a step by step process with steps varying in impact. With this development the USA will develop a counter to the Chinese magnetic wake discovery and this will continue back and forth. The race for the US is on now to recover from this Chinese tracking discovery…..
It's surprising that these magnetic wakes weren't discovered sooner, since it was obviously that such wakes would exist with a metallic hull...but maybe the detection equipment wasn't sensitive enough until now....
Kelvin Wake is a well known phenomenon. The earlier detection focuses on surface disturbance based on radar imagery. MAD is a more advanced detection methods based on seawater's interaction with the geomagnetic field as the sub passes through. It's another piece in a multi-layered detection web and one that is even harder for subs to evade. Military tech is a history of spear and shield. Ultimately the winner is the one that innovates faster
The Lockheed P-3 has been flying since the 1960s.
It uses Magnetic Anomaly Detection (MAD) to find submarines.
In this picture, the MAD gear is inside the tail boom.
read the following from Gemini. what China develops is over and above what P-3 Orion is capable of.
While a P-3 Orion's Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) is primarily designed to detect the magnetic disturbance caused by a submarine, it's not specifically designed or intended to detect the magnetic anomaly associated with a Kelvin wake. The MAD system is optimized for detecting the magnetic field disturbance caused by a large metallic object like a submarine, and it's most effective at close range and low altitude. While a Kelvin wake, which is a pattern of waves created by a moving submarine, can also generate a magnetic field, this field is significantly weaker and more diffuse than the magnetic field produced directly by the submarine's hull. The P-3's MAD is not sensitive enough to reliably detect these weaker, more spread-out magnetic disturbances
Realize US MAD has progressed since 1966. Understanding MAD was mandatory during my first year at the Naval Academy, it was part of the basic knowledge we must have to eat normal meals.
The Kelvin wake can be minimized by using thermoclines, with structural additions to the submarine, by slowing down (submerged subs are faster than you imagine) and other methods. The U.S. is also experienced in using satellite detection.
Stationary devices are a greater threat.
same as missile defense, no single system is impermiable. A multi-layer detection platform is much more robust. Always a game of spear and shield and who innovates faster wins.
One interesting development for U.S. submarines is they are losing their elite status. When I was at the Academy, Admiral Rickover had his pick. Rickover interrupted his interview with the number one guy in our class to put the Midshipman in a closet for hours to think about his answer to the question, “Why did you get that one “B”?
Today, nuclear submarines are forced to request non-volunteers be assigned. I don’t know why the service has fallen this way.
same problem with other branches of the US military. I think few new recruits are attracted as people get delusioned about the righteousness of what they are told to do. Most people go into military with a sense of honor and service, which seems to be completely lacking in the wars US fights today.
Submarines really are different.
Put yourself in the shoes of the graduating Midshipmen. I chose to be a pilot. All surface assignments mean fresh air.
Submarines have two career paths, nuclear ballistic missiles stay hidden for six months and they don’t generate Kelvin wakes when on station. Attack submarines are totally different and they don’t need to avoid Kelvin wakes…they are the wolf not the hare
I've read that a large fraction of US military recruits entered through a special pre-bootcamp for candidates who failed the iq test or physical fitness test initially. I have to imagine that these people wouldn't want the hardest assignments.
That is a totally different group from any who might serve on nuclear submarines.
Admiral Rickover had his pick of any Naval Academy graduate.
I was told my class had 40,000 who started the process to apply. About 1/2 of them were considered for Congressional or Presidential appointments. All those in the last 20,000 applicants were in the top 5% of their class. Of these, 4000 are nominated. Then the physical exams reject many.
My class of 1350 had higher SAT scores than any freshman class in the nation except for Harvard. We added to the Harvard requirements by demanding top physical conditioning.
Of these 1350, 850 graduated. They were good, but maybe we lost a few who were better. No society can successfully choose the elite. They all must settle for good.
From this group, only the top few qualified for submarines. Me? Mild Claustrophobia…I would have been miserable underwater for six months.
"About 1/2 of them were considered for Congressional or Presidential appointments. " Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the terms. Would you elaborate, please? Just curious.
Each U.S. Senator and Congressman and the Vice President can have five attending the Naval Academy at any time. Almost all Midshipmen get into the Naval Academy by being nominated by a Congressman or Senator.
https://www.usna.edu/Admissions/Apply/Nomination-Sources.php
Wonderful!
I'm sorry, but MAD detectors are as old as squatting to shit. I don't deny China's advances at all—in fact, I'm a fervent admirer of Chinese technology. But we shouldn't try to sell something that even my aunt and the neighbors know as something new. More impressive is the new technology to detect submarines from space.
Magnetic Anomaly Detection (MAD) was used by Lockheed’s the P-3 aircraft in the 1960s. The tail boom is the MAD gear.
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/p-3.html
"This wake, previously studied for radar-based imagery detection, generates a faint but detectable magnetic field when seawater ions, disturbed by motion, interact with the Earth’s geomagnetic field."
So the material that makes up the submarine (e.g. steel) has no bearing on the Kelvin Wake. Brilliant.
Technology is a step by step process with steps varying in impact. With this development the USA will develop a counter to the Chinese magnetic wake discovery and this will continue back and forth. The race for the US is on now to recover from this Chinese tracking discovery…..
❤️👍💯
It's surprising that these magnetic wakes weren't discovered sooner, since it was obviously that such wakes would exist with a metallic hull...but maybe the detection equipment wasn't sensitive enough until now....
Kelvin Wake is a well known phenomenon. The earlier detection focuses on surface disturbance based on radar imagery. MAD is a more advanced detection methods based on seawater's interaction with the geomagnetic field as the sub passes through. It's another piece in a multi-layered detection web and one that is even harder for subs to evade. Military tech is a history of spear and shield. Ultimately the winner is the one that innovates faster